Originally by: Manfred Sideous

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JUST PUT SUPERCARRIERS BACK TO WHAT ABATHUR HAD THEM AS YOU CAN NERF EM IF IT DONT WORK BUT PLAYERS ARE SAYING IT WILL.


If not CCP please take sov somewhere so AAA , Atlas , Goons , NC , PL can make a jooint campaign to come siege you into the darkage.

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Originally by: razzo

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Ok, this sucks bigtime.

Posting a remake of the MS and tells eveyone how great it will be.
Making people invest in a MS before dominion so they wont have a problem with the
production when the new sov hits the systems.

Waiting a few weeks.... posting a **** blog about changing the stats and then come up with the idea to remove the MS totaly from the patch.

So CCP Nozh, can i send you a bill with 20bn is for the MS i just built and fitted?
You can transfer the ISK to my account and you can come and pick up the MS when ever you want.

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Originally by: Katsura Kotonoha

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Don't listen to these ass hats Nozh, you are doing the right thing.

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Originally by: Karlemgne

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AHAHAHAHAHA... I hope you emo-rich got what you wanted. You complained enough that they aren't changing MoMs at all. :D

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Originally by: Kraken Kill

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Does this mean Motherships also wont be getting the increased jump range?

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Originally by: Hk93g3

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CCP is the new Sony? EVE is the new SWG? C/D?

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Originally by: Battle Tested

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On a serious note....How can you, after admitting the mothership was broken in today's capital warfare, go back to it's original stats? How can you sit back and let people go into mass production after the well accepted and playerbase approved CCP Abathur changes to only change them to crap and then back to worse crap? Then, upon our dissaproval tell us we can't express our feelings of how you deceived us and how you are ruining the game that we have invested so much time and money into. This is bull****, straight up bull****. Just like SGE...EVE will be a thing of the past, and there is no fixing it once you push away your customers.

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Originally by: Jim Eat

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CCP thanks for letting me waste all that time training up for a ship I don't even want to use anymore.

Why don't figure out a way to let me convert all those skill points into something you haven't totaly screwed up yet?

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Originally by: Battle Tested

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On a serious note....How can you, after admitting the mothership was broken in today's capital warfare, go back to it's original stats? How can you sit back and let people go into mass production after the well accepted and playerbase approved CCP Abathur changes to only change them to crap and then back to worse crap? Then, upon our dissaproval tell us we can't express our feelings of how you deceived us and how you are ruining the game that we have invested so much time and money into. This is bull****, straight up bull****. Just like SGE...EVE will be a thing of the past, and there is no fixing it once you push away your customers.

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Originally by: Overlord Anubis

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These new changes to eve smell of socialism. Why not just tax the rich plays and give the income to the new players.

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Originally by: Severion Atarkos

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WE DEMAND AN ANSWER FROM A SENIOR CCP MEMBER NOT THIS ****** WHO IS GOING TO DRIVE AWAY YOUR CUSTOMERS AND PUT EVE THE SAME ROUTE SWG WENT

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Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Let's see...

"Target Painters Do NOT Work on Titans, Supercaps, Structures, or Sieged Caps"

On Titans and Supercapitals that doesn't matter as their Signature Radius is already very large to begin with. Dreadnoughts and Carriers have the ability to enter Siege mode / Triage mode; both modules vastly increase your tanking and in this case the amount of damage they receive. Thus the large explosion radius scales the damage dealt to capital ships.

The Citadel Torpedoes don't do their full potential damage to Dreadnoughts, however they were balanced to do similar amounts of damage towards Dreadnoughts as XL Turrets with this in mind. Citadel Torpedoes have the ability to do more damage to larger targets.

To illustrate how it would have worked with Fighter Bombers, you can take a look at these graphs:







"Capital ship fights rarely if ever happen at short distances."

What I meant by this is that there aren't many situations where you get to fully utilize the short range weapons (especially the "6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I" and "Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I"), due to their poor optimal range and the fact that you can't dictate range while in siege mode. With high damage ammo on Tranquility, your damage output starts dropping rapidly at ~5km, in which case you might as well use the long range weapons.


"Docking games"

We can all agree that docking games are, well, lame. But this problem is across all ship classes, regardless of their hit-point count. Thus, this problem has to be solved by some other means than to limit docking for the capital fatties. We'd like to work on other solutions for this problem.


"Titans"

As stated in the blog, Titans primary role should not be direct damage. We still feel like they need more defined roles, this will be worked on along with proper Mothership changes.

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Originally by: Sertan Deras

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You know, I went and re-read Nozh's reply, and uhh, Nozh, it makes you look worse than the original dev blog did. It shows you don't even have a fleeting grasp on how we actually use these ships.

Here's a hint: No one target paints anything in a capital fight, making your graphs absolutely worthless. The only line on that graph that matters is "15 Fighter Bombers - Base/Siege", and it's barely 2700 DPS. My Revelation did 5200 DPS with max skills and faction gear. 2700 DPS was not unbalancing, it was not even out of the realm of normal, it was barely half of what a good Revelation will do. Especially when you consider that DPS is based on drones that have travel time and can be killed.

The Titan debacle is just hilarious. For months we've been told you DID have a role in mind for titans, as front line anti-capital, anti-structure fights. Now, suddenly, in your great wisdom, you have decided titans are now gigantic logistics ships, and SHOULDN'T have a lot of direct damage capability...but wait, you are going to release them with the turret buffs and capital death ray in tact anyway.

This whole thing is just a complete and total mess, and shows a level of incompetence and total break down of sane communication at CCP.

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Originally by: Battle Tested

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We still want hard facts and reasons why CCP Abathur's proposed supercapitals were changed...NOT stupid graphs that dont prove ****. WE tested this stuff on sisi and was greatly approved and accepted. I still don't see how CCP can allow one IDIOT to destroy the hard work of a proven dev and a large portion of it's playerbase. How about this for a suggestion...Make a new thread that gives us the ability to vote on each individual statistic proposed by CCP Abathur, and CCP Nozh's different ones, and of current MS. Let us tell you how we feel that way. Tally up the votes, see where the majority agrees, put the approved changes on Sisi and see if it needs tweaking or fixing. WTF is so wrong with that? Or....you can just read this thread and see how we feel about it. It's actually elementary.

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Originally by: kittypaws

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Originally by: Thrud Valkyries

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Originally by: Vincent Gaines

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Originally by: Kraken Kill

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Just do this.

Motherships Get Dread Jump range.
Motherships get 20 Drones at Lvl 5 carrier.
Citadel torps AND Cruise get 1500 Explosion Radius, Torps (and compact get roughly 60ms explo velocity).
Motherships get a EHP buff.
Fighter Bombers (with 20 fighter bombers and lvl 5 fighter bomber) do roughly 8000 dps+
Motherships cant dock
Motherships dont get build costs reduced
Motherships lose triage and clone vat to balance the increased damage.

Titans Get 5minute DD timer.
Titans get the same damage as 2-3 Dreads (8-12k dps) with lvl 5 Titan.

Naglfars dont get a split weapon bonus (the dread with 4! weapons should be doing the most damage. Currently the Nags artys with EMP (20 shots) has to reload every 5 mins, which is sooner than every other dread and it requires carrying more ammo types).

Phoenix should get a 5% ROF damage bonus and a 5% bonus to ALL missile damage types.
Cit Cruise and torps should have 1500m explo raduis, being make smaller with skills for the cruise so they are effective against large pos mods and small pos. Right now Turret ships can still hit medium and small pos mods for massive damage while missile dreads FAIL extremely FAIL at this.

Do this and ALL problems will go away. Everything will be good. Harmony will spread out among the player base.

This is TESTED BY THE PLAYERBASE and everyone was in agreement. Only your shortsighted Egomania felt that Capships being used aggressively was a bad idea.

Also- I think you are out of line starting your post with a 'Lets see' as if the players are all idiots and have missed something.

You CANNOT impliment ANY of these Titan changes if you are going to leave motherships as they are.
You have also forgotten to do any work on Triage- It was said originally that Triage duration would be cut to 5mins and strontium consumption would be reduced.

Why you feel Torpedos need something so bizarre as a 3000+ explo radius ive no clue, you are terrible for causing more problems with your problem ideas.

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this.

THIS.

THIS.

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YES PLZ!
And everyone is happy again and we can go back playing with our internet spaceships.

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Originally by: Ravenid

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Edited by: Ravenid on 20/11/2009 19:12:05
Love this quote from mmorpg.com

Quote:

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MMORPG.com: Talk about the recent changes to the Massive Super Carrier. Many players are calling it a nerf. Can you set the record straight? Noah Ward: Unlike most other MMORPGs, with EVE we try to give every class of ship a clear role. It's not a simple game of bigger is better. It's more like a complex and nuanced game of Rock/Paper/Scissors. Unfortunately the poor Supercarrier (previously known as Mothership) never had a clear role much like the lion in Wizard of Oz didn't have a heart. They occupy a space between the massive Titans and the more ubiquitous Carrier class of ship without really standing out on their own. We wanted to improve this situation, find their true role and make them something pilots would be proud to fly; enter Fighter Bombers. Fighter Bombers are anti-capital weapons that launch big dumb warheads that do a lot of damage but have trouble hitting the broad side of a battleship. We like the direction things are heading and the models look damn cool but we're still not 100% sure the changes are achieving what we want to achieve. This is why the changes to Motherships/Supercarriers are being deferred and won't go out in Dominion 1.0. We're going to continue to play test both internally and on our public test servers. We're going to continue to talk to players. We're going to follow the yellow brick road and we're going to find the unique role these ships fill which will hopefully make the largest number of people happy.

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Originally by: CCP Hammer

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Hi, everyone

We werenÆt entirely happy with the direction and balancing of MOMs before development of Dominion began. Even during the SISI tests they still werenÆt falling into place for us. They were potentially too powerful and that would have resulted in a small minority having a lot of fun at the cost of thousands who would be instapopped in 0.0. So we tried to tune them again to a point we felt was balanced, but then the role of the ships wasnÆt clear once we started to lower the damage. Instead, they started to blur with dreads and carriers.

You all made your voices clear with important feedback, we listened and reverted things back to like they are on TQ while we take more time to reassess. We could have tried to put out ôsomethingö just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch. Given the amount of work to get one of these we just didnÆt feel that was the right thing to do.

Thanks for listening
CCP Hammerhead
Lead Game Designer

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Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

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Everyone quiet and stop the hate for 5 mins

Lets review ----

motherships are not being changed they are going to be like tq motherships atm.

-- not mentioned, CCP never said they werent getting an hp buff, you all are just assuming they wont. So shush, wait for them to give more details.

second,

-- This is not the place to rant about nag, moros, and phoenix, test server feed back is in a different forum.


third

Nozh is a messenger, so that means he drew the short straw when or lost a bet to the rest of the staff about announcing the changes. Nozh thank you for taking it in stride, you deserve a beer, especially after all the crap we have put you through.

4th

Hammer, you did a fairly good job of explaining everything, but when you answered many of the questions you left a lot more to be asked, you may want to make a long detailed dev blog about all the capital changes and why.

5th,

everyone stop posting for a while, its friday, go get a beer, drink a little bit and relax, calm down and come back to the forums and make some intelligent post.


Everyone, just needs to relax seriously. Our testing was not in vain, we just showed to them there might be several balancing issues that could result.

We have learned though from press releases and articles that show how much players care about their game.


CCP devs, thank you for taking the hate storm in stride, you guys do put up with a lot. It's just going to take some time for the anger to calm down and we can get on with the release of dominion.

Once again everyone stop the hate, let the devs and gms spend time working on dominion rather than be forum police.

-OH

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Originally by: Honest Smedley

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Edited by: Honest Smedley on 21/11/2009 20:29:47

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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As quite new to the game and these patches drama, I'd like to ask one very very simple thing:

If the patch was going well and there was good consensus, did anyone at CCP post why it got completely scratched and redone (in an impopular way)?

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CCP Hammerhead essentially answered this.

In the form everyone liked, they were too powerful and (combined with titans) lent too much of an advantage to established 0.0 alliances. Basically, those who can currently field them would hold an insurmountable advantage over those who currently can't.

In the nerfed version, motherships weren't powerful enough to justify their cost or inability to dock. They also obsoleted carriers. This lead CCP down a path (lowering production cost, making them dockable, etc.) that was both disliked by the playerbase, and by CCP. They were therefore reverted.

Motherships will continue to not be compelling over carriers because CCP doesn't understand or hasn't been able to implement the special sauce that will make them so. Simply making them WTF ownzor carriers is not going to do it, because it is unbalancing and will have to be changed again later. Changes have thus been delayed until after Dominion.

The collective player base whining about the matter needs to stop being butt-hurt by changes to things being changed on the friggin' test server. CCP needs to stop dev blogging about changes on the test server as though they're promised features for the next expansion.

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Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

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I wouldnt be too worried about Motherships being released without the HP buff and jumprange increase. Those two doesnt affect the game that much.

With regards to Titans tho. Their current incarnation won't be used for anything but bridges. Its pathetic that ships that keeps being used as showoffs in most of EVE's trailers (incl moms) are nothing but exatly that, fancy showoff pixels for movies...

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Originally by: Taco Torpedo

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Edited by: Taco Torpedo on 27/11/2009 00:16:23
Apparently according to ccp via there new Dominion Features page that started advertising the final changes for Dec 1, motherships will have fighter bombers, hp buff, and no more triage and all that stuff. http://www.eveonline.com/dominion/features.html

While I highly doubt this its intersting that they have not updated any of this info.


P.S. Maybe they should let MS pilots dock there ships until the changes come out, with the ability to only undock it once without the ability to redock. At least that way ppl arnt wasting there time just sitting in a pos.

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